Hank Green: 30 Years on the Internet, the Algorithm, and the Art of Making Things (Part 1)

Hank Green has been building on the internet since before most people knew what it was. He co-created Vlogbrothers, co-founded VidCon, co-founded Complexly (home to Crash Course and SciShow), and has spent nearly 30 years figuring out how to turn curiosity into something scalable, sustainable, and genuinely meaningful. He is, by any measure, one of the architects of the modern creator economy. And in this conversation, he is remarkably honest about what that means.

In Part 1 of this episode, Anita sits down with Hank to talk about what the internet looks like after nearly three decades of building on it, and what it has cost. When Hank started, there was no money to make and no status to chase. Collaboration was easy because there was nothing to lose. Now, he says, everyone has become islands. The scene that once felt open and weird and creative has collapsed a little under the weight of its own value. That's not entirely a bad thing, but it is a real thing.

From there, the conversation moves into the mechanics of what it actually takes to break through as a creator today. Hank's answer is honest to the point of being uncomfortable: raw exceptional talent, ungodly luck, or a kind of ruthlessness. Often some combination of all three. He shares the piece of advice nobody gives - watch content outside your genre, or you'll look exactly like everyone else in it - and makes the case that the most important decision a creator makes isn't the title or the thumbnail. It's the topic.

Hank and Anita also dig into the difference between platforms that treat creators like business partners and platforms that run like casinos, why storytelling is the only reliable way to keep people watching, and what it means to be authentic when the algorithm is only rewarding certain kinds of authenticity. Hank's take: the algorithm is just the weather. Complaining about it is like being surprised it rained.

This is a conversation about creativity, longevity, and what happens to an industry when it grows up.

Disclaimer: I'm a lawyer, but this podcast isn't legal advice. It's for general information only. Listening doesn't make us attorney and client.

FOLLOW HANK GREEN YouTube: @HankGreen YouTube (Vlogbrothers): @vlogbrothers YouTube (Complexly): @Complexly Instagram: @hankgreen TikTok: @hankgreen X: @hankgreen

 FOLLOW SIGNED Instagram: @signedthepodcast TikTok: @signedthepodcast LinkedIn: Anita Sharma YouTube: @signedthepodcast Listen everywhere you get your podcasts

Produced by Anita Sharma and Phoebe Dunn. 

Edited by Carmine Mattia. 

Social Media Strategy by Maureen Lauren Sedlak. 

Signed Theme Music by Carmine Mattia.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Sign. My name is Anita Sharma, and I'm your host. Please like, follow, subscribe toSign the podcast. We're on all the platforms, everywhere you listen to your podcasts. Tell friends, tell family. We appreciate all of your support. I am super excited about today's guest. He started making videos on YouTube when it was still an experiment. We're talking back in 2007. He turned that into a career that spans millions of viewers, billions of views, multiple companies, best-selling books, podcasts, and a reputation as one of the most thoughtful voices in digital media. He's one of the architects of the modern creator economy. He's built a career at the intersection of education, entertainment, and entrepreneurship, co-creating one of YouTube's earliest and most influential channels, and launching multiple media companies such as Complexly. And he consistently finds ways to turn curiosity into scalable, sustainable businesses. Welcome to the show, Hank Green signed Conversations with Digital Mavericks. Hello. How are you, Anita? I'm good. I'm good. It's great to have you on. And I've had the pleasure with the pleasure of working with you and your amazing team over at Complexia. I got to give a shout out to Julie and Kelsey and Aaron and all the incredible people over there.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Yeah, yeah. Yes. And and also just me. Sometimes it's just me you're working with not even any infrastructure around it.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Sometimes I can't stop doing stuff. We give you, we we work with you so much. Uh and and also I know you have a bunch of other clients. I don't know how you have time to do a podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah, I don't know either, to be honest, but here we are. It's this is actually my fun. This is fun for me. So this is fun time.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

A little, yeah, a little time off. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

We all need fun time. I also feel like, Hank, to be honest, whenever you and I have meetings, I feel like it's it's like a trip to the dentist's office for you. You're a little bit like we gotta do it.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

I'm so happy to have a lawyer who I like, but I I don't like to deal with the things that we're dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

I sense that. I sense that. I sense you're just like, I want to go make stuff and ask questions and figure out why, you know, double-A batteries don't work more efficiently. Like I feel like Yeah, I I get it. I get it. I don't I don't blame you one bit. Well, that's a good segue into my first question. It's a pretty broad one. We're gonna give, we're gonna throw a softball at you though. So you've been creating online for nearly two decades. What still feels the same about the internet and what feels completely unrecognizable?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

I mean, the thing that feels the same is that it keeps changing, which is uh a little trait if if you say it in the way that the only constant is change. Uh, but it's true. I like I I've been creating on the internet for more than a decade, for more than 20 years, if you count like when I first started making stuff. Like I was making stuff when I was in high school in like 97 or 96 is when I I first had a website that like people went to, and that um, and that was like a part of you know, that was like I was creating content and like watching people interact with it. Um and uh so so eventually I'll hit 30 years. Um but but that was like it was websites that I was doing and and they were all static. And if you wanted to upload something different, it was logging into my FTP server. And then it was blogs where there was a content management system, and that like the whole world of blogs was such a thing. And then there was um uh, you know, I kind of transitioned straight. I my my like blogging career overlapped with my YouTube career. My YouTube career, of course, has overlapped with my various uh hosting and live stream careers. Uh, then I had like a TikTok career that I have less of now, and now I kind of have a different YouTube career, and I have like a complexly career and a DFTBA career. I like the the I love it, I love so much, and I know that this isn't the case for everybody. Like most people are uh do not appear to be like this. I only know what it's like to be one guy, but most people do not appear to be like, yes, bring on the next change. And I'm like, I am very much that way, which can create tension among the people in my life. Where it's like, Hank, are you you are not going hard on that new thing, are you? And I'm I am going hard on that new thing, absolutely. And um, and uh so so that's the the big thing that's that's been the same, is that like it really being a person on the internet really rewards wanting to try the new thing, being very project-based in your learning. So it not not saying like, well, this is what I learned in school, and so this is like what I want to apply. It's just like, no, what I learned in school was how to learn stuff. What I learned in school was like like a basic scaffolding to hang hang things on. And and I'm just gonna chase whatever opportunity uh is in front of me and whatever success happens to occur. And then the thing that is um different, that there's everything, but like the biggest thing that's different is the amount of status that comes along with success on the internet. And that's that that that might sound like it's like a just like an internal to me thing, but it's what I mean is that like because it's a it's a place where if you do it, you're living the dreams that you had as a kid, or you're living the life of your idol, or like, or you're in like there's money to make. There wasn't money to make when I was first first doing this. I like I, you know, my my blog barely paid the bills. Uh and and then before that, zero. And then YouTube, when I started, was zero. So there's money to make, there's status, there's like there's like all this, and and what that means is that everybody's fighting much harder for it. And uh, and that changes the kind of content that gets made, it changes the vibe, it changes the relationships between creators. We're not as friendly and like cute and little as we once were. Um now people are like, you know, there's so much demand for uh a lot of my friends in the world that like we just don't like hang out anymore. And and asking favors is a bigger deal than it used to be, and collaboration is is harder. And so, like, there's all these second-order effects of the amount of value in the system, um, which is great in some ways because it means more people can do it. It means there's more innovation, there's more like cool, weird creative stuff going on, but it also means that the scene sort of collapses a little bit and everybody kind of becomes islands, which is not creatively the best, I think. I think it's creatively better when a lot of people feel really open to um and and there's and there's like no when you don't have a lot, there's not a lot to lose. And those times when there wasn't a lot to lose are the best times.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you said so many interesting things in that. Just to just to unpack it a little bit. I think I I always and people never talk about this, but I I always say as well, like the technology got better, right? Like the cameras got better, the editing software, like it was easier to create. I mean, from the time you started till today. I mean, basically anyone can make videos now. They pull out their iPhone and the quality is excellent.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

It's easier, it's easier to make something, but it's because of that, it's harder to succeed. Um, and and because there's a lot of people trying, you know.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

Break breaking through nowadays requires like like one of three things or some combination of three things, which is like just raw, exceptional talent. That and that that is definitely part of it. Um uh a huge, just just like ungodly luck, um, and then like like brutal uh yeah, just brutality. Just like like a lot of people succeed in this space now by being kind of ruthless. Um and and I don't necessarily mean that they're being ruthless to people, but they're being ruthless in terms of like looking at what's working, and and it's all about stress testing stuff and testing and and figuring out what's what's working and what's not, and it's very like analytics based and very which is not um, you know, I've always been obsessed with that stuff, but like the um it's interesting to see who, you know, in the last five years has has popped, and it is usually a combination of of those three things.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's it's also like just to talk about so a lot of creators think, you know, and this touches on something you just said, like they need that viral moment. And so they're chasing that viral moment. And your journey is much more iterative, right? Like you're saying, I mean, you're trying a bunch of different things. So, what is your advice to creators who are just starting out? Because they're just like you said, I mean, everyone's doing it now, it's oversaturated. How do they start and break through?

SPEAKER_02 9:16

I mean, I have no idea. Um I I wa I watch people do it. And you know, like if you go and watch Cal, like Funky Frogbait, um, who came up in the last few years from came over from TikTok, had big splashes on big successes on YouTube, which is very hard to do. The the terrible news is that Cal is just freaking good. You know, they're working so much harder than I ever have worked on a video. They're they're so much funnier than I am. Um they're like, you know, this is you know, months of research going into a single video. Um, and then like on top of that, however much, you know, really like top-notch comedy writing um on top of that. And and I'm just like, I like I I would never be able to. Like, I only have the skills that I have because I've been honing them for 20 years. And so like that makes me good at this. Like, I think that if I started from scratch with the skills I have right now, I'd probably be able to become like a, you know, full-time creator. I wouldn't and definitely wouldn't get to where I am right now, but I I think that I'd I would become a full-time creator. But only because I have those skills and like it took forever. And the the the only reason I made them, the only reason I created those skills was just like video after video after video. And there's a lot that I've learned along the way. But you do have to be kind of ruthless. You have to look at what's working and what's not working, you have to like read a like one of the like here's one piece of advice that nobody gives. Watch a lot of stuff in a lot of different genres. So if you think, well, I'm gonna be uh, you know, I'm gonna be a uh like a games reviewer and you watch a bunch of games review content, you're gonna look like all the other games reviewers. But if you watch like makeup tutorials and you watch uh stand-up specials and you watch um, you know, video essays and you watch um uh, you know, uh sports analytics content, you do all of that, like you're gonna you're gonna pull things out and you there's actually gonna be stuff that that maybe make that like differentiates you. And the other thing is like, you know, the old story that if you take a year to make one bowl, you will not be anywhere near as good as make at making bowls as if you take a year to make a thousand bowls.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Just take take a year to make a thousand bowls. Um, but like pay attention, not just to what like the algorithm is responding to, because to some extent that's gonna be random. Um, but but that's important. But you'll be drawn to that. No, no one will not pay attention to that. The thing to also pay attention to is like how much you are like you are responding to it and why. Um, and if you're responding to it because you spent a lot of time on something, um, that's fine. Like you're building your skills, but that's not actually like a good signal for um if it takes a lot of time and like you're just kind of proud of it because you put a lot of yourself into it. This is a a pro a problem I see sometimes in in early creators, is they're like, well, I but I spent so much time on this. Why doesn't YouTube reward this? And it's like, it's not that YouTube isn't rewarding it, it's that it's not that good. Like you're just like you spent a lot of time and you built a lot of skills, but like this wasn't the one. And like, yeah, so so like um, but yeah, get them out there. And the other thing is that no nobody in on YouTube thinks about the most important uh part of the video, which is picking the topic.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

Yes. The topic and like the title, the thumbnail.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, everybody thinks about title and thumbnail, but nobody thinks about topic. Everybody is like, everybody's like, here's my here's my like title and thumbnail for this topic. And I'm like, well, you picked a bit, you know, there's no good title and thumbnail for that topic, which is like a thing that that I deal with all the time. Like some like if we're doing a crash course, I can't like pick any topic. You know, we're gonna have to cover all of the parts of chemistry, even the boring ones. And uh, but like, you know, today I uploaded a video that I I wrote the whole video and then I was like, actually, nobody's gonna watch this. I like I got like a little bit interested in something.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

But I mean, do you but do you care about that? I mean, is it no?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

I mean, I yes, yes, I care.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

But like, I mean, to some extent, but it seems like you really just want to do stuff that you find interesting, and thankfully the rest of the world finds interesting, or many people in the world find interesting.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Right, right, yes, yes. But it's it's really interesting, like, and you never know, of course. Like maybe I would have been wrong, so it was worth doing. But the video was uh where does where do all of the atoms in your toilet paper end up?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Which it's a great Well, that's very specific. That's like where did your toilet paper end up?

SPEAKER_02 13:56

No, but turns it turns out that if you ask where your toilet toilet paper ends up, then you don't actually like know where. Like the toilet paper is gone fairly quickly in the process.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Right. But what happens to the atoms? But but this is what you're so good at though, Hank, because people are going to read that title or that topic and be like, what the hell is this?

SPEAKER_02 14:15

It is really like it it is a point of pride to try and create a uh to to ask a question that no one would ever think to ask, and yet they would still want the answer to it. I think that some people will feel that way about this video. I do not like I I think that the double A video double A battery video you mentioned is e is is like a way better version of that. Like, why do AA batteries still suck is a great question that nobody ever thinks about. And I was so proud of it when I came up with that idea and it it did really well.

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Well, I think people have just been beaten into submission with the double A battery.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

There are certain things that just sort of like are the way that they are and have been that way forever.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

For a hundred years. Yes, exactly. So you mentioned skills. Like you were like, I've got the skills now. If I started today, I think I could make it. What are those skills? Like, give me your top three skills that you've developed.

SPEAKER_02 15:03

Uh number one is voice. So, like figuring out who you are and how you talk and how to talk in a way that keeps people's attention. Um and and and also like, you know, that part of that is the writing voice. Like sometimes, and not not everybody writes, but I write. Um, so like your writing voice and then how you could transition that into your speaking voice. Writing voice is metaphorical. But this it's a thing that writers talk about, your voice. Um, and then there's your actual voice, like the way that you're talking and and like the the sort of getting comfortable, talking weird. Like it's just not like like finding the way that you speak that that that seems normal when you're watching a YouTube video, but if you were sitting in the corner, you'd be like, why is that guy yelling weird? He's very loud. People are not that loud. Um, so so finding that and getting comfortable with it. Um, and and that's different from um that's different from the content of the writing, which is like topic selection. Um and and then I guess I'll probably like lump topic selection, like all of this in with writing. Um so that that means that like you're gonna pick your topic, you're gonna find a way to because it's really about like the whole the whole journey of like, I don't know, the first 30 seconds is the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Um and sometimes you don't get a title and thumbnail because it's a swipable platform, and so all you get is the first five seconds or one second and then five and then ten and then fifteen, and like you're trying to drag people through that whole piece so that they don't swipe. And um uh so so uh finding ways to um keep people watching that aren't that don't that aren't perceived as manipulative, it's hard to know exactly what manipulative means. Like clickbait is obviously like the word we use for a title that uh got me to click on it, but actually the interior of it does isn't satisfying me.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Um Well, I feel like everything is called clickbait now. Yeah, I mean uh to me it has a specific. Does it? Because I feel like nowadays it's like everything is like we're just so used to things being provocative and like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, I mean, everybody's gotta play that game. But for me, uh clickbait is is when it doesn't fulfill on the promise. Like if I say, you know, why do AA batteries still suck? Uh and then like, you know, and I could totally do this. And then like most of the video is about like the chemistry of alkaline batteries because I'm trying to pad it out because I'm trying to make a longer video. People probably notice and feel a little manipulated instead of talking about the actual like dynamics at play, the actual like reasons, the engineering reasons why.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Um I like that idea of fulfilling a promise.

SPEAKER_02 17:53

I think that's you make a promise and then you fulfill it. We talk about that a lot of complexity.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Uh like the title is the promise. Um, and and then um uh and so like, but there's also like manipulations internal to a video, and you can see those like really transparently sometimes. Like sometimes you watch a video on a on a swipable that's like really baiting you into keep keeping watching. And then it it's like, oh, this guy's gonna throw this ball at a thing, and then he takes like 35 seconds to do it for some reason.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Yeah, I I you know what I just swipe because I just I know what's happening and I'm like, I can't, but it's we weren't.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

We're all right.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

I mostly just get bored, which is yeah, sad because it says something about my attention span. But I also do I do feel manipulated. But it's interesting. I wanted to get into storytelling with you because I love storytelling.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

I love the concept of so like this is the best way to keep people watching in a long-form video, is like you're telling a story, and no one like gets mad when you tell a story and it has a little bit of like signposting. So it's like telling you what's gonna come later, like a little foreshadowing without telling you. You know, it's like but you're not gonna find out about that now, you're gonna find out about it later. Nobody gets mad about that, but it is a way to be able to like tell people that there's more meat in this and they have to stay around, stick around for it.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Right. And it's also storytelling is not just for filmmakers and writers. Like it's applicable in any aspect of your life, right? Because you're making an emotional connection. You're communicating well. There's like a beginning, middle, and end. There's, I mean, it's a skill I feel like so many people, I mean, it's just a skill in in all industries and all careers and all aspects of life, that that emotional connection. The the thing is, and and what I'm thinking about a lot these days is how challenging it is because of everything you've just you've been talking about, like the platforms, for example. Like, let's face it, like the algorithm is only rewarding certain types of storytelling. It's like what is authenticity now, right? Like when is a creator fully authentic? How do you strike that balance between creating content that is true to yourself, where you're like, I Hank Green, want to learn about this or I want to put this out into the world, versus, well, this isn't gonna get me a whole lot of views?

SPEAKER_02 20:11

Um I guess so there there's there's two pieces of that. Like one one, there's certain things that I want to make because I think they're important. It's like it's about the impact of it. And this can be a problem for me because those videos sometimes are a little bit harder to figure out how to frame in a way that uh not always, but sometimes to frame in a way that that uh is gonna uh get people to click on them. Um and so I can spend a lot of time thinking about that, and and then I don't end up making the video, and then I'm like making some easy thing instead. And then I'm like, well, am I doing the what the work I want to be doing right now? Um so so yeah, there is that there is that tension there. Um and then sometimes I want to make something because I I'm like, oh, this is gonna get a ton of views and I'm gonna feel great about it. But I do like to, and we talk about this at complexity as well. I do like to sort of like find my best topics and then use them to tell the story that I want to tell, even if it's not super like I don't think that people notice, but even this is not like a super natural transition from that topic to that story. One of the, you know, as a science communicator, one of the things that I I sort of rely on over and over again is um is that is that like we're raised, like we get done with high school thinking that we just know things almost. Like we don't talk about there, there's like not enough time spent talking about how we actually figured stuff out, like why we know these things and and and the the tools with which we so so like that's one of the great things that I get to do is is be like, okay, let's actually go through like how we figured out what air is or something like that. And uh, which is not like Young, it's pretty young knowledge. Like we didn't know what air was when America was founded, which is pretty fucked, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah, that's that's yeah. I mean, it's incredible to think about. I I completely get what you're saying. I mean, listen, I went through school wholly unsatisfied. I didn't find it interesting. I wasn't excited by it because of what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah. So the thing that I say is is everything we know is something we figured out. And um, and I get to and like that fits into any science story. Like there isn't a science story where like that, that you can't get there. Um, so I end up there a lot. Um but that's just like a thing that I think is really important to keep hammering on because in part because of the way we're educated, in part because like, you know, that that's I think that's part of how you get excited about science is you start to understand that like it's a process and we're in the middle of it. Um so uh but but but what I'll say is I don't actually have this relationship with the algorithm that a lot of creators have, where they're like, ugh, there's not rewarding this. Oh, it's like that to me feels a little like um, you know, getting out of my chemistry degree and and being like, oh, I have to keep like reading papers. Yeah, of course, you have to keep reading papers. You have to like if you you want your oncologist to not have stopped reading, you know, like cancer research the day he graduated from from medical school, right? You like what you want him to continue to to interface with stuff and change how things work and in the same way. I'm just like all these platforms to me, and I I shouldn't always think this way because I know people at them and I can like actually give them feedback, but to some extent, they're just the weather. It's just like this is how it is today. And and I like what I'm doing is not, and I this is me. This is like I'm I'm just not very precious about my craft. Um, what I'm doing, like my craft is getting attention through the tools that have been created and that people are currently using. And so if there's a bunch of people on YouTube, and YouTube is like, we're gonna reward content that's over 12 minutes long, um, or yeah, that's not it's not like a cutoff, just for anybody listening. Like we're gonna record, like there's gonna we're gonna be rewarding watch time. And one of the things that increases watch time is having longer videos. Uh, then I'm gonna figure out how to make longer videos. And I'm gonna figure out how to try and do that in a way that doesn't like uh drive me insane, you know? And uh and and and and also that people like, you know, that that like is rewarding for the viewer. And I'll just like I'm like, okay, that's the that's the game I'm playing. Like that's the game I've been playing the whole time. So I uh I was playing that game the first day I uploaded a YouTube video to some extent. And and I, you know, a lot of people there's two sides to the algorithm, is the other thing that I think. Like it the only inputs it has theoretically, as long as there's no like bots getting in, which of course there are, but like the only input it has is the decisions of human beings. That they click on it, that they keep watching it. That's mostly it. But also there's like sentiment analysis from the comments, there's likes and dislikes, you know, all this stuff goes into the magic box. But mostly it's it's did they click on it and did they keep watching? Right. And uh and so that's like the but all those things are human decisions, like how people commented, what they said, you know, whether they disliked the video. But then now, now at the same time, you could do a lot of different things with that data, and like YouTube and TikTok, and they all decide uh to do a certain thing. And so there's like it's not like values neutral. They could they could decide to reward one thing or another. They could, you know, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Well, they also switch it up, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Like when YouTube just like it's not clear when and how and why, and and there's multiple, it seems like there's multiple like ones running at any given time, and and they'll find the one that works for them the best and switch over to that one.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Yeah, I mean, I feel like YouTube when TikTok took off during COVID was all of a sudden like all about short content. And now they're boomerang, boomeranging back to long form.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

You know, I'd be like, it's yeah, Blockbuster should have been more about streaming, you know. Like I don't I don't blame them for not for doing that as as much as I don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

So how do you decide like because you I know YouTube is like you know, kind of your platform, sort of I I would say your favorite platform. I actually love it too, because it actually pays my clients, which I appreciate.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

It doesn't treat them uh it treats them better, you know? It treats them better much better. Meta properties is that like sometimes I'll make a bunch of money, but when? I don't know. It's a fucking casino. Like they want you to have these intermittent rewards where it's like suddenly I'm making a bunch of money on Instagram reels and I'm gonna do it. And then I open it up and it's like, well, you could get a bonus if you get X more views. And I'm like, well, fuck you. I hate that so much. Like, let's just have a business relationship.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

But yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Instead of instead of asking me as a creator to like be a gambler in a casino, YouTube says, here's the situation, run your business however you see fit. Don't violate the terms of service.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

You know, yes, absolutely. And and here's the thing about YouTube that I feel like, and correct me if if if I'm wrong or you you don't see it, but I'm seeing YouTube pivoting now to more longer form content, yeah. Kind of trying to be a studio a little bit. I feel like they're like, okay, these there's creators like my client, Michelle Carey and you know, Drew Binsky and these people who are creating these epic productions, right? Like these incredible content that you could see on Netflix or you could see on Hulu, but it's on YouTube. And I think that's really exciting to YouTube. And I think that's an exciting concept of there, I do feel like there will be a class of creators that is creating this like incredible content with really high production value, and YouTube is thrilled about it and rewarding that right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yeah. Do you think that they're rewarding it with views?

SPEAKER_00 27:48

I think they're rewarding it with views. I think they're rewarding it with boosting these creators, like come to brand connect, do this, be our keynote speaker.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Um, like feding them in a way. I think I think YouTube once I think once they saw that they're like outperforming Netflix, easily outperforming Netflix with what is user-generated content, since they're not producing it themselves. I mean, YouTube originals, as you know, you were, you know, you guys were beneficiaries of that way back in the day, had other clients who got YouTube original money. Um, and that failed spectacularly. I don't uh it's I'm curious about what your thoughts are on the YouTube originals, but now I think YouTube's like, hey, wait a second, we can kind of be a studio with certain creators and really help them push their content out. The the high production value creators. Um what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Well, I I mean, I I my first thought is that high production value doesn't necessarily mean incredible, uh, and and also vice versa. Like like low production value doesn't mean not incredible. Um so so I you know, a like most of what I watch on on YouTube is you know, people talking to the camera about their thoughts. Um because I there's a there's a lot to think about right now. I like to have a tool, tools to help me think about stuff. And um uh and and like, but I you know, I watch, I watch some of that stuff. Like sorted, I love like sorted is like a a comfort watch for me and Catherine, which is like a food, like a British food show. Uh or just like like uh four British guys cook and two of them are chefs and two of them are just guys, uh, and they like have to do different challenges. And it's very much like a very very TV show vibe. Michelle is, I mean, one of the most hardworking and talented uh I mean her stuff is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

I mean, she hung out, she did the Tom Cruise stunt.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Like Yeah. Yeah, she did that, she did the Houdini stunt. She she almost she decided to lock herself on a bunch of padlocks underwater. Um yeah, she she is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, when I say when I say high production value, I completely agree with you. I again it comes down to the storytelling, right? It's these people telling these incredible stories.

SPEAKER_02 30:04

Um Yeah. It had little successes here and there. Um but but the you know, to to me, like ultimately, what YouTube knows um is that like what an advertiser, you know, or an ad agency or a or like a like a pro PNG, like what they think of as valuable content is very different from what people actually want to watch. And we're still in that era, wildly enough. We're we're less in it than we once were. But like these big advertisers still want their ads to appear if they can, next to stuff that looks like something that they wouldn't mind having their 65-year-old CMO see, you know? And that's very dumb, but it's how it is. Uh and uh it's less how it is now than it was, and it will continue to change. It just doesn't change as fast as we'd like. But really, what what like decide like the the amazing you know, business that YouTube has stumbled into is that uh executives never knew what people wanted to watch. And like Michelle knows better. Michelle, like but but like who who would have guessed, right? Like, like if you know they're there, you know, when Michelle was at BuzzFeed, there were probably like I I was I went and visited BuzzFeed while Michelle was working there and like made some stuff there. And you know, in that in in those productions that I was on, Michelle was one of the people. Um, you know, Gabe Dunn was one of those people. Um I'm trying to think if there's anybody else who's like had a post-BuzzFeed career that that I know about who was who was there, you know, Alice Abraskin. Um like but but but there were but there were like you know 10 times more than that who you know when BuzzFeed started laying people off, they just got laid off and and got another job in Hollywood. Um so so like and who probably would have loved to have Michelle's career, but didn't like, you know, nobody was working as hard as Michelle. Um and uh and and also Warren is good, like she's just good, you know, she's got a lot going for her. Um that that so that's like very hard. Um but so so like no one wouldn't know that Michelle would be a better programming executive than a programming executive. But it turns out that she was, and the and like the system figures that out. You know, it finds the people who are good. It's very good at like it's fairly good at finding the people who are good. Of course, it's there's lots of people get who get left behind for various reasons and who never get discovered for various reasons. But um, the system is is like a lot better than like an like the old gatekeepers at finding out what people actually want to watch. And it turns out a lot of people just want to watch like smart people, you know, doing cultural analysis or or giving them like weird sports statistics, like stuff that you never would guess. And maybe like I don't know. These videos get like 600,000 views, and we don't think that they're that big, you know? Like that's huge for a huge show.

unknown 33:21

I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

I know, believe me, it's it's crazy. I get 20 views on this podcast, and I'm excited, believe me. Signed Conversations with Digital Mavericks.